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 Post subject: Fees/Expences etc
New postPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:35 am 
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Would it be useful if there was a sort of register for fees or whatever they are called, or are there so many variations that it is really not worth it?
I started with £10-00 for an afternoon and then it occured to me that there are some people, who seeing something virtually for free, would have had me playing outside their windows all day long, so I enquired and found that £50-00 for three hours was enough to justify an attendance. That way I see a small reduction in the outgoings I have.
I would certainly value some opinions from others.
Roger Willott Hereford


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 Post subject: Re: Fees/Expences etc
New postPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:51 pm 
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Hi Roger.

Expenses are always a debateable subject and there is no 'standard' charge.

How much you charge depends on a number of factors. The size of instrument, the distance to the venue and the budget of the event are the main considerations. A larger instrument, or longer distance = a higher charge!

Also, if you attend a charity event, do you want to do it for nothing, or make a token charge?

It also depends on your financial situation. If you are on a small income, you may need to ask for a higher amount to cover the cost of running the instrument. Fuel costs, maintainence of the instrument and vehicle/trailer expenses are increasing.

You may find that someone is prepared to pay a substantial amount for a particular organ, because they saw it at an event and decided that was 'the one' they wanted!

So the bottom line is...it depends!

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Dave Stubbs


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 Post subject: Re: Fees/Expences etc
New postPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:26 pm 
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Hello Dave,

Many thanks. I wonder if people will declare an actual figure?

Roger Willott


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 Post subject: Re: Fees/Expences etc
New postPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:05 am 
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Location: Ollerton, Newark, Nottinghamshire,UK
Like Dave says it all depends on many factors, I’ve received fees from £100 for 4 hours appearance at an evening fate and as much as £350 for a weekend. Mostly I found it’s about £50 to £100 for my sized organ for local events that’s within 30 miles.
Not a lot to be made for appearance for manly it’s for ones own pleasure rather than the reward,

Just to give some indication on a typical weekend.
I use 25 litres of petrol in the generator.
When one is towing the trailer on the back of the motor home it only averages 20 to the gallon. And most of my events average 100 miles round trip.

Also remember maintenance of the organ its trailer generator insurance and the PRS scan, not forgetting the tow vehicle yearly costs,
From last years records if averaged around £120 an appearance, not including any turned down work that I sure most organ owners must do.
I’ll just point out that many organ owners like me declare all takings to the Inland Revenue so theirs tax to pay.
Not including any purchasing of the organ or any of the outfit that one has to have.

Yes there’s ways of cutting running costs but it’s not a business for me.

As I don’t take much of the money offered for 2 reasons.
1. It may invalidate my motor homes insurance as by taking the money can be misconstrued as hire and reward, if I take the organ on the back of my LDV van, I would need to fit a Tachograph if I’m to be paid. Please, I know that they only know what you tell them but remember one has to sign for your money at most well run events, so theirs a record on its way to the Inland Revenue (organizers accounts) so theirs a paper trail that clearly states you received money for an appearance, Please don’t lob any stones my way about the above ring VOSA and your insurance company and ask them about being paid for taking you fixed load trailer for hire and reward.
2. Tax reasons as I declare everything full stop. (I need to be squeaky clean in my chosen profession) so im not an unpaid tax collector.(VAT)


So if any organisers of any events see this post maybe you will give generously especially to the bigger organs as the expense’s must be grater than mine.

Sorry for any typo’s and for my prattling there it was only going to be a quick response but got on the 4 legged beast again and it just ran away with me.

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Yours Phil Radford (pipeorganphil)


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 Post subject: Re: Fees/Expences etc
New postPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:34 am 
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Dear Phil,
I don't need convincing that there is no profit to be seen in this game! Last night I wrote an email to confirm a booking and said that my payment is the gratitude I get from people, which is true. Chewing the fat and getting opinions from people such as yourself is extremely helpful as it gives me confirmation that what I charge isn't unreasonable. My garage charges me £40-00 an hour, after all!
I do not intend declaring any profits to the Inland Revenue as there are clearly none. Regarding the insurance, surely you cannot suggest that you are running a trade, so therefore you are covered under social domestic and pleasure? It is a hobby and in much the same way that passing money over to assist with the outlay on fuel if you share a car is now legal, I suggest the small sum we get for appearances merely goes some way to reducing our losses.
Regarding fitting a Tachograph, I suggest you are not a full time driver. There would be all hell let loose if Postmen had to use them.
Thank you for all you have written.
Do you know anything about the mechanics used on a Bandmaster? I propose to use pneumatics.
Best wishes,
Roger Willott
Hereford


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 Post subject: Re: Fees/Expences etc
New postPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:37 pm 
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The thing to remember is that no one has ever made a profit by hiring an organ.

The initial cost and subsequent maintainence of the instrument, the running costs of the vehicle, insurance, etc almost make it seem that there is no point in taking the darn thing out in the first place!

But when you take the organ out and see the faces of the public light up, or the 6 year old child dancing in front, you realise what a great, feel-good hobby this is and that makes the relatively large deficit between the running costs and expenses charged, all worth while!

If we charged an amount proportional to the running costs, we would never acquire any customers!

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Dave Stubbs


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 Post subject: Re: Fees/Expences etc
New postPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:56 pm 
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Quite! My second line in the post prior to yours covers it, but the point you make about the six year old dancing covers it, too. Often they have only just learnt to walk and they're jigging around and fascinated by the Bandmaster with an arm conducting.
Mums sit down with two year olds and bounce them up and down to the music.
That is the payment.


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 Post subject: Re: Fees/Expences etc
New postPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:48 pm 
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Yep roger willott, that about sums it up for me.



Sorry for my earlier ranting’s.

Something I needed to expand on a bit otherwise i tend to get jumped on a bit.
Anyway the only reason I commented on hire and reward was I had a good friend that got pulled over by VOSA just routine, upon examining is out fit VOSA came across one of its outfit signs that had for hire on it. Let’s just say that was the last time he ever had his outfit out.

Going back to the tax man thing.

The Inland Revenue doesn’t care if you make a loss or not, he wants to no about any monetary that comes into ones hands, (self assessment forms.) ask the auditors, they asked me to explain in very fine details.

As you probably gathered I love being audited.

Anyway all out of context to this thread, so I will shut the ______ up now.


Bandmaster and pneumatics, yes strait forward maybe something for the
Organ Building and Technical, Section.
Or
Amateur Organ Builders, Section.

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Yours Phil Radford (pipeorganphil)


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 Post subject: Re: Fees/Expences etc
New postPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:45 pm 
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I was under the impression that taxes are levied on profits. You make no profit, you pay no tax, surely? Seems to me it is a convoluted argument to levy tax when we are all merely seeking to reduce our considerable losses. Is it more accountants seeking to inflate their fees? Get another accountant, as they are supposed to work for you, not against you.
I'm not sure what you are suggesting what the VOSA people were trying to suggest? That by hiring out his organ he was invalidating his insurance? If he was doing it by way of trade I think that is acceptable, but he wasn't and neither am I. My trailer is covered for third party risks, which is what the Road Traffic Act requires.
As you say, this isn't entirely in keeping with the original subject.


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 Post subject: Re: Fees/Expences etc
New postPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:26 am 
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I use the same accountant as the federation of small businesses (FSB) he’s exhalent and above any I have used over the years, it’s a turnover eschew to the VAT, when one runs a business if money is exchange the tax office wants to know about it, and that’s from the tax man him self, it was the tax man that told me to put the organs through the books as it would save me money on the tax bill, but that would rope my organs in to the business, my accountant advised against it strongly.


What I was trying to point out, is if you run your own business theirs things that one needs to consider regarding moneys in, as it’s the turnover that may become a problem in relation to VAT for small business and a tax bracket for hire earners, theirs a point that ones tax liabilities can jump to a higher level for the sake of a £100 extra income.

The way round this is if your wife don’t work, or under the minimum for tax ask the organizers of an event to make any payment in your wife’s name, but watch out she will spend it ha ha , some wife’s are almost tax like collectors.

It’s the individual that’s responsible for there tax if one decides not to declare it so be it and good look to them.

Anyway in the interest of this thread, I won’t respond with anymore comments regarding this tax subject.

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Yours Phil Radford (pipeorganphil)


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