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 Post subject: Water powered car!! He's gone completely mad.
New postPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:42 pm 
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Hi all something off topic but probably up most vehicles users street.
So I have decided to let the cat out of the bag regarding my first passion, for many years (most of my life) I’ve worked and built/and run devices that run with very little energy like pulse motors that one can collect the BEMF (Back Electro motive Force) this can be harnessed to charge banks of batteries or even rejuvenate old batteries like that one on that old cordless drill that needs a new battery, im not talking about perpetual motion machines just very efficient ones, yes I have played with such devices but no comment on that work. Anyway I digress from what this post is about.

So what is it about then?
Im putting most of my pipe organ work on hold shortly and going back to my first passion, im going to rebuild one of my water powered vehicles not strictly as described it’s powered from the hydrogen derived from water by the means of electrolysis.


What is electrolysis?
Electrolysis is the separating of a compound into its constituent elements by passing an electrical current through it when in an aqueous state. The word electrolysis means the process of breaking molecules to smaller parts by using an electric current. Positive and negative poles of an electric source, such as a battery, can absorb opposite ions of an electrolyte, causing separation of ions and creation of a new substance. Electrolysis is a chemical change.

Now this is nothing new it’s been done by many over the years, one of the best known is Stanley Meyers, Stanley was reported to been assassinated over his work in this field.

The biggest draw back over the years is the amount of energy needed to split the water, the common way it’s been achieved in the past is by simply pulsing the power supply. (Switching it on and off hundreds of times a second) Most out there know my line of work is electronics including research and development, so it’s no big surprise I’ve been developing electronics to do the work of splitting the water more efficiently. I’m into frequency waveforms cells that seem to do the job very well not complicated but very efficient im getting 6 litres of hydrogen per minute on 12 amps 2 volts on the bench. (That’s with the oxygen removed) in theory my unit should run a 3 litre engine on full load. I have been running an old Lister D on one of my earlier systems for some time now and just piped the water hopper into a radiator to warm my workshop up at home not mint although I was working in all that snow in the workshop. If anyone had popped round the back of my motor home last season would have see my device running the generator that was powering the Dean organ. So with the fuel prices it’s time to put my research in a vehicle.
Now before anyone starts banging my head on the floor, I have got all the paperwork from the relevant governing bodies for the go ahead like:

HM Revenue & Customs.
VOSA
Police, although it’s nothing to do with them.
Environment agency.
Insurance and liability for road and track testing.
Track testing just for shake downs (Caldwell Park)
So I have all the above in writing.

Please before anyone shoots me please research before you pull the trigger.

Apart from 4 honourable chaps in the pipe organ world no one knows anything about my research in this field, as I have been very reluctant to share with anyone (ridiculed and all that) but now its out in the open.

Now the begging bit:
Im looking for a small vehicle for free or very cheap.
It will have to be pre 1972 (registered before 01 January 1973).
Condition not too much of a problem or the size but smaller the better, I have all the facilities and years of experience in restoration to put anything right. I’ve even built complete cars and motor bikes from scratch. Im not looking for a mint vehicle just something I can work on as I get the time.

So why before the above date?
1. It’s unlikely to have any electronic control systems on board that may interfere with testing. Don’t want to have to start modifying things like air flow metering systems, Lan sensors, on board computer control systems, catalytic converters, injection system and so on.
2. It will be tax exempt this helping to keep cost down.
3. It will need to be petrol powered.
4. Engine size: I would prefer something under 1300cc.
5. Manual is preferred but auto would be fine if not better for this project.
6. Will need the v5 (log book).



So if you have a vehicle that’s just sat doing nothing or you need to get shut but not to the scrap man please give me a call 07527365658 ask for Phil.

Please remember don’t want a valuable classic just a relic unloved from the 60’s/ 70’s.
All work on this vehicle will be videoed and uploaded to the internet so everyone can follow its progress. Depending on success I am planning a live pod cast up dates from Lands End to John O Groats,

Edited by P.T.Radford on the 28/02/2011 at 19:00
Thanks to all but I now have a car in place.

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Yours Phil Radford (pipeorganphil)


Last edited by pipeorganphil on Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Water powered car!! He's gone completely mad.
New postPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:47 pm 
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No you haven't gone mad Phil, just fallen for one of the most seductive ideas in science, that you can somehow get something for nothing.

You are putting in 12A at 2V which is 24 Watts or Joules/second, in 1 minute you are putting in 24x60 = 1440 J of energy.

You say you are getting out 6l of hydrogen per minute which weighs about 0.089g/l if not compressed i.e 6x0.089 = 0.53g.
The heat of combustion of hydrogen is 141900J/g so you are producing 75776 J of energy.

So you are getting out 52x more than you are putting in...

Taking the 3 litre engine, lets be generous and say it's worn out and only produces 80 horsepower or about 59kW, that's 3528000 Joules in 1 minute, you're now producing 245x more than you're putting in!.

Sorry Phil, this is classic nonsense, do you really believe 2V at 12A (a couple of C size NiCads in a small electric screwdriver) can accelerate a car as rapidly as a 3l petrol engine?

Sure you can electrolyze water to produce hydrogen, and run a petrol engine on hydrogen, what you can't do get more energy out than you put in, if you could the world's energy problems would we solved.


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 Post subject: Re: Water powered car!! He's gone completely mad.
New postPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:08 pm 
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Hi Guys.

The Internet is full of hydrogen/fuel cell vehicle conversion kits...but do they work? After all, as Greg says, you can't get something for nothing.

There has been a sudden surge of interest in the Tesla Generator...in a simplified form...which can't generate anywhere near as much electricity as claimed, but someone is cashing in on selling the specs for it! The demonstration that appears in these specs appears to just use an aerial and detector circuit to convert radio frequency energy from radio transmissions in to electric, which isn't what Tesla was talking about anyway. (http://teslasgenerator.net)

These are just a few of the many sites selling or discussing hydrogen vehicle conversions:

http://www.moneysavingtechnology.com/hy ... l_cell.htm

http://www.aboutmyplanet.com/science-te ... gen-today/

http://www.ask.com/questions-about/Hydr ... rsion-Kits

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/1861

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Dave Stubbs


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 Post subject: Re: Water powered car!! He's gone completely mad.
New postPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:29 pm 
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Spot on, im not under any elusion, you get nothing for nothing in this world especially when it comes to energy there is no free energy to be had if there was we would all be on it. I completely comprehend and fully understand what you are saying, along time a go I ditched all books and put aside all installed knowledge about this kind of research if we all stuck to what came before then there will never be any advancements, the only thing that I think about is doing what I know works and how to improve on it.

The below is not aimed at anyone no offence is meant it’s just the ranting of a daft man.

Please be patient with me, I will disprove it for myself, but Im going for it full blaze if it all works or not I will give all info on the vehicle and the vehicle will be open for full inspection at anytime by anyone the only thing I will hold back for now is the electronics that I’ve spent years on and im not going to mention the cost of research and testing and new shed roofs. All the electronics will be in the form of a black box in any videos/diagrams/photos.

To my knowledge there’s never been any attempt in splitting the water in the manner I am performing it and yes it does seem to defy all that is known, but so as a lot of things that I wont go into.

Almost everything we take for granted in life at some point defied everything we knew and understood, most would be inventers give up on research under pressure from peers when starting out as they get ridiculed and shamed even ostracized, I don’t conform to convention in this field as I would myself give up as it won’t work and can’t work its not possible I know all this, like I say above I will just have to prove it myself I stopped believing in convention many years ago most rules of the theory even practical examples and most was set out before I was born and to be quite frank have no place or meaning in the real world especially in today’s technology. In the same breath a lot do apply and can never be sidestepped.

The one thing I have come to understand is even if it works there will be some that still stand on the box an denounce it. Fortunately for me I just see straight past them to the goal ahead even if im wrong.

Now you also have to remember from my last post this is not the first time I’ve done this. However this is the first time I’ve made it public, unlike any of my other projects this vehicle will have no other fuel source on board other than the water and a battery.

The one thing that does bother me is if anyone is successful in this field life as we know it is over.

Jobs will go from every point on the globe and if you think about it like I have over the years everything in life can be traced back to oil/fuel/power. If we could power are homes and cars from water or the daft mans perpetual device there would be: No jobs in power generation industry as every one will be at some point self sufficient with there own built in power cell. No jobs in fuel industry, oil producing countries will be obsolete the list is endless.
Not all going to happen in my life time but the same thing will happen when we run out of oil.

Without all are shed mavericks tinkering there will be no replacement for oil/fuel/power, maybe naively I’ve come to believe and realise that, them that knows will never even try anything that’s not been proven on paper in some antiquated script somewhere because things according to the records don’t add up and from this they blindly dismiss ideas because everything tells them it’s not possible so stop trying, then on the other hand when a shed maverick finds a way around the dismissed, them that know jump on board very fast swamping the poor shed mavericks ridiculing and ostracized him/her achievements in some casers pilfering the shed mavericks work and publishing as there own and we seldom here from the shed maverick again, well this is one that’s back and the internet and YouTube will help stop that from happening. Publish everything.

On the other hand there’s them that just think sausages to it, it wont effect me I wont be about then so what the hell I just keep reading things as they are and always have been and will always be, let the powers at be come up with something.

Now that’s my ranting off my chest, I will not defend myself or my work in this field or on this forum anymore as its just one of then debates that’s just going to go on for ever and as we in the know all know there’s no point as im wrong it wont work it cant work. A line from 1 of the 4 honourable chaps in the organ builders world that knows me, if you have the chance to retire to do what you want to do, do it before your to old or its to late, see I do take note.

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 Post subject: Re: Water powered car!! He's gone completely mad.
New postPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:10 pm 
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Thanks for the come back Dave seen most in your post and like Greg points out on paper they don’t stack up, well not for me, have tried one of then and helped with several on other forums with the electronics. I don’t like using electrolysers to many questions there for me regarding pollution. I use a similar system to one that you could find on one of the good old USA submarines it’s along the same lines obviously not completely same or in size, they only use the oxygen and vent the hydrogen back in to the sea mind you they use a nuclear plant to run it. I have a video of it some ware if anyone’s that interested.

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 Post subject: Re: Water powered car!! He's gone completely mad.
New postPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:39 am 
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Hi Phil.

I wasn't trying to put you off, in fact I hope you succeed, because the depletion of oil and gas reserves scares the :censored out of me, as we don't have anywhere near enough 'alternative' energy to replace hydrocarbon based energy...and it is running out FAST!

Of course if you do succeed, the government will put 'fuel' duty on water!

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 Post subject: Re: Water powered car!! He's gone completely mad.
New postPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:07 pm 
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Hi Phil,
I wish you well in your endeavours. There was a man by the name of Stan Meyer in the States some years ago who appeared on a programme entitled "It runs on water". He seemed to have a type of electrolysis going on in a cylinder with lots of metal rods protruding downwards from the top. This was connected to a control module & when Stan turned up the control knob, gas could be seen to bubble energetically in the cylinder, but using very little current. Could he have been pulsing the current @ high frequency? I am useless at electronics. He was using the gas produced to run a Beach Buggy.
Herbie Mitchell
P.S. If the gas won't power a car maybe it could replace bellows on an organ?


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 Post subject: Re: Water powered car!! He's gone completely mad.
New postPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:59 pm 
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Hi Phil,
I admire your determination but please understand that no established law of physics has ever been overturned by a "shed maverick", or a state funded research program for that matter, for at least two hundred years. Every invention or advancement in that time has always been explainable in terms of the fundamental rules.

The only way you can succeed is either to overturn such a rule or to invent cold fusion to convert the mass of water into energy. Some very learned and well funded people have fallen into the trap of claiming they've done the latter over the years, and always been mistaken.

Yes the world will have to change it's energy sources and usage, that was inevitable regardless of global warming. I work in the power generation industry and am privy to what's going on behind the scenes. I can tell you that the blackouts due to lack of capacity that we are just being warned about, or scared with depending on your side of the fence, actually started a couple of years ago but have been covered up. The short term future is really quite desperate. That's why the building of new nuclear stations has been railroaded through, though it will come too late because they take 10 years to commission, and why the government has imposed totally uneconomic feed-in tariffs on the industry to drive the installation of renewable's. Unfortunately there has been no joined-up thinking and the consequences of all this renewable on the grid hasn't been allowed for, I'm involved in trying to mitigate those consequences. As a result we are about to see a huge expansion of the grid, new super-grid lines will cut through the country, much to the dismay of the greens. We're already seeing small scale wind generators popping up all over the countryside, and are about to see domestic solar generation take off.

I could go on about all this but the point is that change is happening, both in the way we generate power and the efficiency with which we use it. New cars are roughly twice as efficient as they used to be for example. We're all going to be checking the power factor rating of new electrical goods when they roll out the so called 'smart meters', which are a thinly disguised way of introducing billing for VARs to the domestic consumer.

However, all this is just a stop-gap measure until fusion power stations become a reality in a few decades time. Fusion power that complies with all the laws of physics I should add, but is proving the biggest engineering challenge in history.

I say this to you with sincerity Phil, please don't waste your life pursuing the impossible because life is just too short. The problems are being dealt with, admittedly at a bureaucratically slow pace, and there's little you or I can do but follow the same path as everyone else in this regard.

Regard
Greg


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 Post subject: Re: Water powered car!! He's gone completely mad.
New postPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:28 pm 
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Hi Phil and Greg and organeer!

I hope I am not hijacking the thread by adding this, but it appears to be on the same basic subject of 'free' energy generating.

This has just been 'doing the rounds' by email:

http://www.magniwork.com/?hop=d2c8s5

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 Post subject: Re: Water powered car!! He's gone completely mad.
New postPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:03 pm 
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Hi again,
While not wishing to start a fight, if nobody ever experimented in their garden shed or elsewhere then hardly anything would have been invented at all. Virtually everything we have today was thought impossible only a few short years ago. Open & experimental minds keep pushing the boundaries back at a great rate. There are a good few casualties on the way, just as there are charlatans & fraudsters, but even the computers we use today were impossible 50 years ago, so who can say for certain what may become possible soon.
Over the years, there have been a great many inventors &, Phil, you may already know of the work of Nikola Tesla, & Viktor Schauberger to name two people I admire greatly. Other sources are "Keelynet.com" & Nexus magazine. There was also the "Clem engine".
Tesla claimed to have a "flying carpet" device but had to wear rubber boots to insulate himself. He also claimed that aeroplanes would be able to collect enough energy from the "ether" to enable them to fly. He invented polyphase motors & lots of other devices of an electrical nature. He was a great believer in high frequency rather than high current devices.
Nil Bastardo Carborundum.


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 Post subject: Re: Water powered car!! He's gone completely mad.
New postPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:30 am 
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Shed mavericks rule!


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 Post subject: Re: Water powered car!! He's gone completely mad.
New postPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:20 am 
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I think the link that Dave posted says it all really, give them £38 and they will tell you how to make energy from nowhere, for free. Why don't we all do that, no more oil, coal, gas, greenhouse effect, etc etc. Why not?, because it's nothing more than a scam!.

I in no way want to discourage shed mavericks, or inventors, whatever you want to call them, I'm one myself!. But we have only ever invented things that obey the rules of physics, though many have been deluded enough to think otherwise.

Yes it's true that 50 years ago few would have dreamed of the computers we're all typing at now, but if you explained to the engineers and scientists of the day how they are made now they would understand the physics, because all we have done is apply that physics and miniaturize to the extreme. It's also worth pointing out that every critical invention along that path, the transistor, integrated circuit, liquid crystal, lithium batteries etc, were developed in well funded laboratories, not in sheds!.

The problem with just keeping quiet about such impossible schemes is that people will be persuaded to send off their £38 to such scammers, or far more in some cases. Itt's the responsibility of those who know better to try and protect the more gullible from such things.

Regards
Greg


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 Post subject: Re: Water powered car!! He's gone completely mad.
New postPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:37 am 
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organeer wrote:
Tesla claimed to have a "flying carpet" device


Tesla claimed a great many things, including that the iconic picture of him sitting under the arc of a huge Tesla coil unprotected was genuine. It was in fact a camera trick. Tesla was a showman of the highest order, hoping to make a fortune out of his ideas, so you have to take everything he claimed with a very large pinch of salt. The fact he died in debt having spent a lot of other people's money on his inventions, very few of which are significant today, says a lot really. After his death the US government obviously believed some of his showmanship as they panicked that his papers contained powerful secret weapons that must not fall into the hands of an enemy. So they seized them, only to release them to the Tesla museum some years later when they realized there was nothing to the claims.

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Greg


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 Post subject: Re: Water powered car!! He's gone completely mad.
New postPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:05 pm 
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Readers of this thread may be interested in the following Wikipedia articles on 'cold fusion' and Pathological Science, unfortunately many top people have fallen for such ideas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_science

Regards
Greg


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 Post subject: Re: Water powered car!! He's gone completely mad.
New postPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:00 pm 
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Some people see the glass as half full, others see it as half empty.


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